Rinnegan and Sharingan from the Juubi

Take a look at the Juubi's eye: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v50/c467/14.html

Tomoe, like the sharingan, and concentric circles, like the rinnegan. I put it to you that both the sharingan and the rinnegan branched from the Juubi's all powerful eye.

I know that most are happy to accept that the SOSP was born with the rinnegan but I put it to you that he wasn't. He attained it after sealing away the Juubi. Now by sealing it away he gained mastery over the six paths so it would make sense that the sage was "born" with the rinnegan in that way.

Love to hear your thoughts if you've got any!

This could mean nothing bro since there are even pictures with the Kyuubi having the Sharingan when controlled by Madara. The fact that he has it could very well mean that its a sign of control like how it was for the Kyuubi.

Interesting parallel between the Kyuubi under Madara's control and the Juubi under the Rikudou's control. And that may well be the case however is you dig a little deeper I don't think so.

The eyes don't really share any common features with regards to powers either.

Sharingan: copying jutsu, hypnosis and seeing the colour of chakra

MS: Ameterasu, Tsukuyomi, susanoo and Kotoamatsukami.

Rinnegan: Preta, animal, deva, human, naraka, asura and outer paths + all nature manipulations

They don't seem to be related at all. I know folk are only too happy to say that the rinnegan can master any jutsu but I think that's because the user has all nature affinities and so can learn to use and master any jutsu. That is to say they have no limits on the jutsu they can learn to master.

Actually, the fact that the sharingan can be used to copy justu is in fact how it's related to the Rinnegan. It's just that the different doujutsu have their own unique abilities. Though byakugan still seems to be a complete mystery, either that or it's just vastly inferior to sharingan. But that's getting off topic...

Asano-X-Aviarus wrote:

Actually, the fact that the sharingan can be used to copy justu is in fact how it's related to the Rinnegan.

Is this reference to the Rinnegan being able to master any jutsu? There have been no instances of Nagato copying any tech using his rinnegan. Actually he doesn't seem to use much ninjutsu at all.

So I don't see how the two are related.

I agree the byakugan doesn't make any sense Kishi seems to have completely forgotten about it.

The Sharingan's copy ability is derived from the Rinnegan's ability to use any jutsu. It wouldn't make too much sense for the ancestor technique to have the inferior traits of it's descendant. I.e. Rinnegan have copy abilities. It's not even necessary as the Rinnegan can produce any jutsu. You were trying to work things in reverse.

My suggestion is that the Rinnegan and the Sharingan are two parts of a singular master Doujutsu.

Referencing the Juubi's eye again it would appear that it is a combination of the two.

I accept that the rinnegan allows the user to use/create any technique but how does that translate into copying a technique? And the rest of the sharingans powers: Ameterasu, Tsukuyomi etc. have no relation to the rinnegan.

For me there is not a strong enough link between the two to say that the sharingan is a diminished rinnegan.

MGB2000X wrote:

I know that most are happy to accept that the SOSP was born with the rinnegan but I put it to you that he wasn't. He attained it after sealing away the Juubi. Now by sealing it away he gained mastery over the six paths so it would make sense that the sage was "born" with the rinnegan in that way.

Love to hear your thoughts if you've got any!

That thought crossed my mind as well in NP one day.

We have absolutely NO idea whether the Sage was born with the Rinnegan and was just an uber genious who simply stopped the Juubi and created modern ninjutsu, or that he turned into a god after he managed to fight on par with the Juubi and seal it in himself.

That being said however, if he had attained the Rinnegan after he sealed the Juubi inside of him, how come his firstborn son had the Sharingan-ancestor eye? I've never heard of a jinchuriki passing down any sort of ability from their bijuu, to their children (Kushina-Naruto for example)

Finally, copying and mastering are two completely different things. Kakashi can apparently copy any jutsu, yet he cant use ALL elements. He cant reproduce certain stuff he copied (fire element). In contrast, Jiraiya said that Nagato can master anything after he sees it only once.

TobiRikudou wrote:

That being said however, if he had attained the Rinnegan after he sealed the Juubi inside of him, how come his firstborn son had the Sharingan-ancestor eye? I've never heard of a jinchuriki passing down any sort of ability from their bijuu, to their children (Kushina-Naruto for example)

Fair point bro. This is something of an extension onto my theory which would hopefully explain the passing on of the sharingan to the sage's eldest son.

When Sasuke invaded Naruto's inner world and suppressed the Kyuubi's chakra, the Kyuubi commented that Sasuke's chakra was more sinister than his own. This leads me to believe that the Uchiha have Juubi chakra as I think that the Juubi is the only thing that could possibly have chakra more sinister than the Kyuubi's.

The sage's eldest son was born and it would appear that the Juubi's chakra has entered his body and granted him the precursor to the sharingan. If you take a look at Naruto when he was born he had the whisker marks on his face, not quite a doujutsu but something passed from bijuu to offspring. Looking at Kinkaku and Ginkaku they had whisker marks and they contained some 9 tails chakra. So the reason for Naruto being born with whisker marks? his mother passed Kyuubi chakra to him somehow.

The Sage being awesome as he is makes sure that his second born doesn't get a dose of the Juubi's chakra and so he's born with just the Sage's body.

TobiRikudou wrote:

Finally, copying and mastering are two completely different things. Kakashi can apparently copy any jutsu, yet he cant use ALL elements. He cant reproduce certain stuff he copied (fire element). In contrast, Jiraiya said that Nagato can master anything after he sees it only once.

There has beeen documented case of a rinnegan user seeing a jutsu and mastering it. Jiraiya said something along the lines of he can master any jutsu after he saw Nagato's rinnegan for the first time but we've never seen it happen, chapter 373. In chapter 375 Jiraiya goes on to say he taught Nagato jutsu, he does say he mastered them but he does use the word taught.

If the rinnegan allows instant mastery then why didn't Jiraiya make more of a hooha about it? My understanding of the rinnegan allowing the user to master any jutsu is that it removes the limitations of nature affinity. Allowing the user to use all the elements and therefore all jutsu.

I totally overlooked the whisker marks on babyNaruto's cheeks after he was born, and the Kyuubi was still inside Kushina.
Your theory sounds very plausible. I'll keep that in mind in the future. Madara's storytelling habit might reveal something of the sort.

About the Kyuubi's comment on Sasuke's chakra: He said the same about Madara. Truth is that Karin confirmed that emotional state does affect chakra (Sasuke's turning colder = hate, while Naruto's being warm = love)

I want to add my own twist.

I see two scenarios:

1. The Uchihas are full of hate because they have Juubi chakra which is evil. <--- what you said.
2. The above claim isnt true and the Kyuubi claimed that Madara and Sasuke (two....haters :p) have more sinister chakra than its own, because their hate is simply more powerful than the Kyuubi's. (which claim can be used as a benchmark of their evil nature)

Well it's a fact that Rinnegan users can use ALL elements, but, learning a jutsu and mastering it, are (still) two different things.
I seriously doubt Kakashi learned how to use in full effect everything he copied automatically. Plus, wouldnt copying a jutsu force him to sometimes drop down a level if the user is weaker than him? I doubt he can copy a jutsu coming from a Chunnin and fire it back as a Jounin.

Finally, it's not just about the elements, it's about hiden (special) jutsu as well (Nara clan, Akimichi clan, Yamanaka clan)
To my understanding, the Rinnegan has a superior form of "copying" jutsu. Jiraiya used the word taught, because Nagato couldnt use jutsu he didnt know, but could use them in full effect after being shown how to do it once.

Well I agree with you analysis of the copying skills of the Rinnegan. In every jutsus there are two parts that one must accomplish. One that is theoretical and the other one being practical. The Sharingan although allowing a person to copy or if you like emulate the theoretical it doesn't bestow the tools for the practical in the same terms that the Rinnegan does.

The Kyuubi's hatred and the hatred of the Uchihas is indeed a significant debate. My belief is that it could be very well connected to the Jyuubi and in those terms that is why the Kyuubi sees it as greater than his hatred. About the abilities passed down from a Jinchuuriki to its children I would have to say that it most likely depends on both the genetic make up of the Jinchuuriki and also the Bijuu itself. We have seen that those afflicted or influenced if you like (kinkaku and ginkaku as well as Naruto) have shown signs of similar dispositions. But also at the same time we know that those dispositions appeared as a result of their clan interacting with the kyuubi.

Madasuke let the haterz hate!

TobiRikudou wrote:

2. The above claim isnt true and the Kyuubi claimed that Madara and Sasuke (two....haters :p) have more sinister chakra than its own, because their hate is simply more powerful than the Kyuubi's. (which claim can be used as a benchmark of their evil nature)

The timing is a little off for me. Karin's observation was well after Sasuke faced off against the Kyuubi in Naruto's inner world. She was shocked to see that his chakra had become even darker. I agree that hate does indeed appear to makes it darker. But Sasuke hadn't faced off against Orocimaru, Itachi etc. at that time so I don't think he was at the same level of hate back then.

I say we stick a pin in the Rinnegan's copying ability, for now. I interpret it as being able to learn/create any jutsu, giving the user the opportunity to 'master and jutsu'.

I accept that you could interpret the statement as being able to observe and then master any jutsu. But we've never seen it so I'm still not sold on it.

One final thing when talking this over with my bro he suggested that it would make more sense, for this theory, if the SOSP was a woman. If the sage fathered two sons then his role is over with conception but if the sage was the mother then during the whole gestation period she could have inadvertently fed her first born Juubi chakra, like Kushina seems to have done with Naruto.

I guess the SOP6 being a women does make a lot of sense but to be honest the current succession of the Jinchuuriki suggest that both male and female candidates once infused with the Bijuu undergo a tremendous genetic mutation to allow them to use the chakra in a tuned form. Like how Gaara's natural inhibitions changed and also with the Yonbi's ability to use its Bijuu chakra nature so I guess it is very much possible that both male and female could pass down traits of a Bijuu to their offspring.

Well as far as when the Rikudo got his Rinnegan, he was born with it. It may have been inert for a good portion of his life, but he was definitely born with it. Hence it being a Kekkei Genkai. Also there are a few other points to consider. It was because of the rinnegan that jutsu even exists. Rikudo created modern ninjutsu before even meeting the Juubi. It's also because of the Rinnegan that sealing the Juubi inside himself and separating it's power was even remotely possible. The Rinnegan gave the Rikudo the power to turn his imagination into reality which is why he was able to do all that he could do. That being said, sealing the Juubi within him is not how he got the rinnegan.

How do you know the Rikudou created ninjutsu prior to his encounter with the Juubi? We know he preached about it etc but there are no references to whether it was before after he sealed the Juubi.

Using the word "definitely" leaves no room for discussion, so I'm not a big fan of that word.

When Madara was telling the Kages the story of the Juubi vs. the Rikudou he tells them that as the Juubi jinchurikki the sage was beyond human. That would indicate that he is stepping into the realms of god, or he gained the power of creation.

You could switch it the other way, as you have bro, and say that the sage was only able to seal the Juubi because he was beyond human. But i don't really see it like that.

If you look at Chapter 467 page 15, it's one of those massive double pages it Madara makes the statement and in the bottom right hand corner there's a picture of the sage splitting up the Juubi's chakra. Bit off topic but it reminds me of Madara's teleportation jutsu!

He had to have battled the Juubi using ninjutu. As I've said before, without it, he would have not been able to do all he did. Honestly if ninjutu did not exist before meeting the juubi, how in the world did he seal it within himself?

Fair point bro. Battling the Juubi with shuriken and kunai would have been ambitious!

I'll concede he has to have had ninjutsu prior to battling the Juubi. I have a feeling that the Uzumaki have a connection to the SOSP. Based on Nagato's rinnegan and Narutos RM and seal. As for having the rinnegan prior to it I'm still dubious.